JD vs. MFA: "Law can circumscribe your world and fiction can break you out"
An interview with Vaishnavi Patel on her latest novel, lawyer tunnel-vision, and going feral
Welcome to a new series, JD vs. MFA! As you may know, I’m a soon-to-be author—my debut is forthcoming—but by day, I work as a civil-rights lawyer in Houston. And I’m not the only author-lawyer. There’s so many of us out there (like Qian Julie Wang, Jane Pek, and Deepa Varadarajan), and just as many ex-lawyers (such as Scott Turow, Min Jin Lee, and Charles Yu). And that’s besides the many writers with law degrees who never practiced (for example, Patrick Radden Keefe, Adam Haslett, and Reginald Dwayne Betts).1
In this series (with a tongue-in-cheek title), I hope to explore that phenomenon by interviewing some of the extraordinary writers who have or have had a career in law. We’ll discuss questions like: For those working as lawyers, how do you balance both careers? For those who left, how did you decide to pivot to writing? What brings you back to the page again and again?
I’m constantly hearing from folks who are figuring out how to balance their passion for writing and their current careers—whether in law or another field. I don’t have all the answers, and this series is a way of figuring it out in real time. Join me!
Welcome Vaishnavi Patel!
To kick off this series, I’m especially thrilled to interview my good friend from law school , Vaishnavi Patel! She’s the author of the New York Times-bestselling debut, Kaikeyi, and the follow-up Goddess of the River. She’s also a lawyer specializing in civil-rights litigation, including issues of gender and racial justice.
She’s the one who showed me that it was possible to have the career in the law and write a novel at the same time, and she’s been my guide to the crazy world of publishing ever since. When I got my agent offer, she was the first person I called. When I wrapped up my auction day, she sent me macarons to celebrate. And that’s not to mention the endless conversations we have about our work as attorneys, like when she guided me through my choice to take a new job.
I’m especially excited to talk to her because today she publishes her third novel, Ten Incarnations of Rebellion! I’ve read it and I can tell you: this book perfectly marries her passion for justice and the law with her ability to tell thrilling, sweeping stories. She’s one of the hardest-working lawyers and writers I know, and it was a privilege to interview her here to celebrate her pub date.
Also, if you’re in Houston—I’d love to see you in two days at Brazos Bookstore, where I’m moderating her book event! (If I still lived in NYC, I would absolutely go to her event at The Strand on June 6.)
With no further ado, the first JD vs. MFA interview!
Nina Michiko Tam: Can you quickly give us a snapshot of both who you are as a lawyer and who you are as a writer?
Vaishnavi Patel: I feel like I should make you answer this question! I’ll attempt to go first, but I actually I’m very bad at talking about myself. As a lawyer, I’m very interested in civil rights work. I’m particularly interested in women’s rights: the whole span, including reproductive justice, immigration and voting rights. in a transitional period in my career, though.
As a writer, I struggle to say exactly what I am, because I’m always changing genres or topics. My first two novels are myth retellings. This novel, Ten Incarnations of Rebellion, is an alternate history. My next novel is a contemporary fantasy about reproductive rights. My book after that is probably going to be a speculative time travel love story. But in all these books, the themes that I’m interested in exploring are the same. They’re women’s rights, women’s voices and stories, political processes, and what it means to be part of a political entity that doesn’t necessarily represent you or your values.
NMT: So how do you get it done? How do you do both law and writing?
VP: My husband does all the housework. I want to start with that, because I do think that male authors or lawyers often have an invisible wife at home. People say, How did this famous man do it all? Well, because he didn’t do any of the housework. In my case, I have a husband. He meal plans, he cooks, and then he does the dishes. I don’t have to think, What am I going to eat? How am I going to eat it? And do I have to clean it up? The amount of mental time that frees for me is immense. He definitely deserves credit for that, just as wives deserve credit for that.
But it’s not all him. You have to be disciplined. I’d love to hear your take on this as well, because I think we have different approaches. When I’m drafting, I will sit down and force myself to write a thousand words a day, or whatever it takes to get to the end of the draft. That means cutting myself off from everything else at 8 p.m. and then sitting there and writing until it’s done. I don’t sleep until it’s done.
There’s times where I’m not writing at all. That’s also really nice. I replenish the well, and I’m more present at home. Work takes up the time that you give it, especially with law, where there’s always something more you could be doing. Right now, I could definitely be reading some briefs. You just have to be willing to turn off the switch at some point and do something else.
NMT: I think that’s hard for people to do. There’s this culture in law, where they expect you to be grinding. At some of these places, the culture is like, Why wouldn’t you use your free time to read briefs?
VP: In my personal experience, there is a sharp diminishing marginal return at some point. I’m a much better lawyer for turning off work at a certain time. I am pretty fast and efficient at work. I’ve had people ask me, How are you so efficient? How do you stay so focused? Well, it’s because I know that at 5:30 p.m., I’m wrapping up. I’m going to go home, I’m going to work out, I’m going to shower, I’m going to eat, and then I’m going to write. Once I have that deadline, it’s a lot easier to use my time efficiently. Otherwise, why not look at Instagram or watch a YouTube video? That just naturally happens when you think you have infinite time.
NMT: Selling my debut, I’ve been asked, Would you want to write full time? For me, it’s not a 100% no, but I do feel like having a day job puts the pressure on me to make my writing time seriously.
VP: And you write every day.
NMT: Yeah, I do a few hundred words every day. I can’t write thousand words a day. I just run out of steam. I can do it slowly over many days. I’m like a little pig, building a house brick-by-brick.
VP: That’s why your house is built out of bricks, and my first draft is built out of straw. It falls down, because I’m word vomiting. I go feral when I’m drafting a project. Last night, I drafted 3,500 words.
NMT: What? That’s my weekly count.
VP: But I couldn’t stop. I left work at 4:30 pm. It’s Memorial Day Weekend.
NMT: No one in law works on Memorial Day Weekend.
VP: So I got home a little early, I worked out, and then it was 6:30 p.m. Okay, I’m gonna sit down early and crank out 1000 words. I did. Then I was like, Oh, my God, I know what happens next. I’m just gonna write down what happens next. I kept doing that. And then it was 11 p.m. and I was like, Okay, stop it. I lay down. And then, Wait, I know what happens next. I pulled out my Notes app on my phone, and I drafted another a thousand words. I went to sleep at 12:30 a.m. I went feral. It was an insane mental phenomenon, and one that I hope does not repeat itself tonight. But that’s what happens to me. I get so caught up in the story.
But this is one of my longest periods of not drafting. Before May, I hadn’t written this year. So now all of a sudden, it’s just coming out. Honestly, the last time I was drafting stuff was in October or November. So it’s been ages, and now it’s coming out. In June or July, the well is going to run dry, and I’m not going to write for another three or four months.
NMT: That’s the opposite of my process. That matches our personalities, though, because I think you are someone who is intense, in a very good way. I operate on a much more mild level. I don’t think my constitution could handle that kind of passion. I would crack. I think that would destroy me. I would have to go to one of those sanatoriums, like in the old days.
VP: I feel like a sanatorium patient right now. My husband told me, You were feral last night. I tried to talk to you, and you didn’t understand that words were being said to you. That is how I felt. I wouldn’t say it’s not healthy, because it works for me, but it’s certainly not for everybody. It’s a choice.
NMT: What advice would you give to someone who’s in the law and thinking about writing?
VP: It depends. You and I have very similar perspectives on being a lawyer—we want to be a lawyer to do good. We see a lot of issues in the world, and we feel like it’s our duty as citizens of this planet to try to do something about it, right? So if that’s your approach to law, then it’s easy to fit other things into that framework if they are compatible with your worldview. To me, writing is—I love it, and it’s a creative outlet—but publishing my writing is another way of influencing and interacting with the world on issues that I care about. It’s not easy, but it’s doable to manage multiple projects or careers if they’re all in line with your values and what you see yourself doing and where you see yourself in the world.
But I wouldn’t recommend publishing to everybody, if it’s not a passion. Writing for yourself is great, like any other hobby. When deciding to embark on a career in publishing, I would think carefully about whether it fits with what you want to do. Maybe you’re an insurance lawyer, because you love it, and you think insurance law is so much fun and it works for your brain. Maybe that’s how you’ll find publishing to be too! And if so, that’s great, and you should do both.
But if you’re thinking that publishing is going to make being a lawyer better, or that it’s going to be the alternative to being a lawyer? Then maybe you need to think about why you’re a lawyer, rather than seeking out something else that’s actually extremely strenuous and might drive you up the wall.
NMT: Okay, turning back to your book that’s coming out today! What is your pitch for people who are interested in law on why they should pick up Ten Incarnations? God knows, people in our profession often don’t read enough fiction.
VP: As lawyers, we currently find ourselves in what we think is a unique moment in history for the legal profession and for the world. But people throughout history have found themselves in similar or even more dire positions facing government or forces that they disagree with, and they’ve tried to figure out what to do about it. There’s a lot that we can learn from in these stories when it comes to thinking about alternative avenues for change, for advocacy, and for getting the outcomes that we want. Because sometimes, as lawyers, it’s very easy to have tunnel vision and just focus on, What did the Supreme Court do today? But most other people exist in a very different world, and it’s very helpful to explore that.
NMT: Reading fiction also requires this imagination about the world that we want to create. Sometimes, as lawyers, it’s really easy to get caught in the weeds and be like, Okay, but what does the statute say?
VP: As a lawyer, I’ve found it very helpful to write about issues that I care about in the law. It gives me another perspective on these issues. Like I care about women’s rights and I care about organizing, but in my day-to-day life, I’m looking at those issues as a lawyer. It’s almost impossible to get rid of that lens. That’s just how I view the world now.
But when I’m writing about characters, I can inhabit them. I can think about alternate ways of coming together and alternate means of advocacy that lead to the same outcomes that I want, but from dramatically different places. That’s the value of fiction. A good book transports you into the place of characters and into a time that otherwise, you would never be able to get to. It’s very valuable for lawyers to do that, because law is one of those professions that can really circumscribe your world otherwise. Fiction is one of the ways that you can break out. ●
You can follow Vaishnavi on Instagram here and order Ten Incarnations of Rebellion here. She’ll be touring in Houston, New York, and Chicago this week. You should go!
Deepa Varadarajan, Qian Julie Wang, Adam Haslett, Patrick Radden Keefe, and Reginald Dwayne Betts all went to my law school! Shoutout, shoutout.
This series feels like a gift!!! Thank you for sharing this, Nina!